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 [15:02:14] <e-morency_>  hi
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 [15:02:22] <antez>  hi
 [15:02:31] <andrey__>  Hello
 [15:02:43] <andrey__>  The meeting is now right?
 [15:02:52] <karenreid>  hi. I'll be with you in a one second
 [15:02:52] <antez>  think so
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 [15:04:03] <karenreid>  sorry about that. Wrapping up a Skype meeting to go to an irc meeting.
 [15:04:09] <karenreid>  what a changing world...
 [15:04:32] <karenreid>  I hope everyone is doing okay with exams and studying.
 [15:04:39] <karenreid>  thanks for all the final reports.
 [15:05:13] <karenreid>  The purpose of a post mortem is to discuss the project and how it ran
 [15:05:29] <karenreid>  In particular, what went well and we should continue doing, and what should be changed.
 [15:05:48] <karenreid>  Comments can apply to UCOSP itself or to the MarkUs project specifically
 [15:05:49]  bwbecker (~bwbecker@scsmac081.cs.uwaterloo.ca) joined #markus.
 [15:06:22] <karenreid>  I would like to hear from everyone at least one positive and at least one improvement/negative
 [15:06:38] <karenreid>  Any questions before we get started?
 [15:07:41] <karenreid>  Anyone want to start? (If I get silence, I'll start and then pick names ;-)
 [15:08:12] <antez>  I can start but I can't think of a negative point
 [15:09:05] <karenreid>  - The biggest negative was that we didn't have sufficient technical mentoring/supervision
 [15:09:20] <karenreid>  + I liked have two meetings for the two different groups
 [15:10:14] <karenreid>  (I should say, that in my opinion, the biggest negative for the group&)
 [15:11:09] <bwbecker>  I was glad to get a big toe into the Rails world. For the negative, the automated test group took too long to nail down our design. We had some great ideas at the code sprint but they changed as we went along. It would have been nice to get them ironed out earlier.
 [15:12:00] <karenreid>  antez: feel free to throw in your positive point
 [15:13:42] <antez>  - One negative is that there is no one unified way of setting up the dev environment so different people are using different os, different ruby, with/without rvm.
 [15:14:01] <karenreid>  we don't really need to take turns today. I'd like to get some thoughts out there and then we can discuss anything or ask follow up questions.
 [15:14:20] <joeyperry>  a big positive for me was that we were using github, as I've used it before for getting source code, but never had the chance to branch other code, work on it, and submit pull requests. Now knowing all this makes me feel like I could submit to other github projects (since there are a lot of them)
 [15:14:53] <antez>  + I like the fact that both begginers and experts can take advantage of this course.
 [15:15:11] <mikeing2001>  a positive would be the overall accomplishment this term with other helping look at issues espically with issue 904.
 [15:15:58] <karenreid>  + we are finally releasing a Rails 3 version of MarkUs!!
 [15:16:12] <e-morency_>  I would suggest creating a VM image for the development environment (for those who had trouble setting up their environment)
 [15:16:13] <joeyperry>  mikeing2001, I agree. I really shouldn't have waited so long to get involved with diving into other peoples issues
 [15:16:15] <bwbecker>  I think more cross-talk between the two groups would have been nice. I have no idea what "issue 904" is or what the non-(Automated Test Group) group did.
 [15:17:34] <antez>  issue 904 is about displaying old marks when doing remark
 [15:17:36] <karenreid>  e-morency_: we did have one once, but it takes time to maintain something like that
 [15:17:43] <e-morency_>  we should have discussed what the other group did (or select some people to attend the Wednesday meeting from time to time)
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 [15:18:49] <joeyperry>  I think at one point I mistakenly sent my status update to people who were in the testing group
 [15:19:02] <joeyperry>  and then got some updates on what they were up to :) I didn't mind that at all
 [15:19:18] <joeyperry>  so eliminating some of the separation would have been alright
 [15:20:08] <karenreid>  we could have reports from each team at the other team's meetings.
 [15:20:34] <karenreid>  Since we just had the meeting to go over all the evaluations from all the groups, let me ask if you would prefer a more formal evaluation or deliverables schedule?
 [15:21:28] <karenreid>  It is also interesting to contrast the google hangout meetings with the irc meetings.
 [15:22:18] <bwbecker>  I gotta go to another meeting...
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 [15:24:09] <karenreid>  anyone?
 [15:24:26] <andrey__>  I liked the technologies used in the project.
 [15:24:27] <karenreid>  andrey__: mmargel we haven't heard from you yet
 [15:24:59] <andrey__>  I personally like to have specific things that I have to do
 [15:25:03] <e-morency_>  karenreid: I think the current formula is ok (with the midterm review and final evaluation), maybe I would add a review between the midterm review and the final evaluation (a small one)
 [15:25:05] <andrey__>  rather then search for something to do
 [15:25:39] <andrey__>  I personally think I joined the course a bit early
 [15:25:55] <andrey__>  definetely should have knew at least the basics for web development
 [15:26:13] <andrey__>  but that would be my mistake and my prof's mistake
 [15:26:44] <andrey__>  The project definitely needs more technical mentors
 [15:26:49] <e-morency_>  andrey__: you probably experienced the negative karenreid mentioned earlier: not enough technical mentoring/supervision
 [15:26:59] <e-morency_>  exactly, nvm :)
 [15:27:21] <andrey__>  well it's a fourth year course and I took it in the begging of my third year
 [15:27:28] <andrey__>  without taking any web development courses
 [15:27:51] <andrey__>  I will be doing server-side scripting course next semester
 [15:27:58] <andrey__>  something I should have done a long time ago
 [15:27:58] <joeyperry>  I guess it depends what project you were working on
 [15:28:11] <joeyperry>  rails is really challenging to start from scratch with
 [15:28:13] <andrey__>  well I wanted a web development one XD
 [15:28:34] <e-morency_>  yes Rails is challenging to start web dev with
 [15:28:39] <joeyperry>  heh, it's also a good way to get started if you want to get a taste of everything :)
 [15:29:00] <joeyperry>  but working on a web project outside of a framework would have definitely helped
 [15:29:59] <andrey__>  I think that I will stay around after the end of the course to learn more about the whole thing and contribute more as I learn about server-side
 [15:30:10] <andrey__>  have a look at the javascript
 [15:30:12] <karenreid>  andrey__: I really appreciated your willingness to attack the problems.
 [15:30:48] <e-morency_>  my positives: the project was great, its structure/goals were clear and github is great (well, I didn't work with sourceforge or any other open source hub, but it was nice to learn to use github)
 [15:30:54] <andrey__>  I also found that there are way too many issues opened and some are just left behind
 [15:31:45] <antez>  andrey: isn't that a common thing in big projects?
 [15:31:59] <andrey__>  I don't know it's my first big project XD
 [15:32:30] <e-morency_>  well IMO Markus isn't that big
 [15:32:34] <karenreid>  andrey__: that's a good point and something I'd like to address
 [15:32:39] <joeyperry>  yeah, getting some of those months/years old issues out of the way would be nice, if possible
 [15:32:55] <joeyperry>  I was planning on trying to work on some of them, once I figured out if they were still relevant
 [15:33:02] <joeyperry>  but many of them were also very difficult issues
 [15:33:14] <andrey__>  someone who has good knowledge of the project should go over the issues and close those that have been addressed
 [15:33:26] <andrey__>  some are just outdated
 [15:33:39] <e-morency_>  I agree, it would help newcomers to select something to work on
 [15:33:47] <andrey__>  if they are difficult it doesn't mean they should be avoided XD
 [15:33:52] <karenreid>  I'm hoping to hire some students to work full-time on MarkUs next summer, and that will help get everything cleaned up.
 [15:34:31] <karenreid>  joeyperry: it does seem to be the difficult issues that get left behind ;-)
 [15:34:34] <andrey__>  plus having a standard for creating an issue was a great idea
 [15:34:36] <antez>  I used to work for MDA and they have a system of putting less important issues on hold, maybe indefinitely.
 [15:34:56] <joeyperry>  karenreid, I kind of feel bad because I reported an issue that I never got around to working on
 [15:35:05] <joeyperry>  so hopefully it doesn't end up like the rest of them :|
 [15:35:18] <karenreid>  joeyperry: that's okay! reporting issues helps us keep on top of things that can be fixed
 [15:35:34] <e-morency_>  andrey__: I agree, a standard for issues/pull requests would be helpful
 [15:35:36] <karenreid>  I'll be using MarkUs actively next term, so expect a lot more issues to be filed :-)
 [15:36:08] <e-morency_>  even if it's just in the title (like the location of the issue or something)
 [15:36:12] <karenreid>  How about any concerns about the sprint or other aspects of running UCOSP?
 [15:36:31] <mmargel>  Sorry, i kind of missed my turn before...
 [15:36:54] <e-morency_>  mmargel: it's more like a brainstorm :P
 [15:37:00] <mmargel>  oh true
 [15:37:31] <mmargel>  I think that learning git was very useful, and I liked learning ruby for this. I also think that I prefer working in smaller groups. I think it's too easy to get lost in the shuffle when the group is too big
 [15:38:15] <mmargel>  But the main thing I would improve would be to have a more formal deliverables schedule. I think the biggest problem I had was that there were no fixed deadlines, so it was too easy to just put this on the back burner at times, and do it later instead
 [15:38:48] <e-morency_>  karenreid: I don't have any, the sprint was great and I can't say I noticed anything bothering me about UCOSP specifically
 [15:41:05] <e-morency_>  did I timeout?
 [15:41:06] <karenreid>  I can tell you that the MarkUs users here are pretty grateful to have a good tool to use, so all of your work is being put to good use here.
 [15:41:17] <e-morency_>  nvm
 [15:41:40] <karenreid>  and other institutions too. :-)
 [15:42:09] <karenreid>  Does anyone have any other topics they would like to address? (positive or negative)
 [15:42:23] <antez>  Are students using markus allowed to comment on it?
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 [15:42:52] <karenreid>  antez: we did think about allowing them to submit bug requests, but mostly we find out from students by just asking them.
 [15:43:17] <karenreid>  antez: mostly students really like MarkUs. Their views are pretty straightforward and almost never fail. :-)
 [15:43:33] <karenreid>  they only complain when the server gets overloaded and they can't submit.
 [15:43:59] <karenreid>  the instructors are mostly happy too. The TAs grumble a bit, but we have them pretty well trained.
 [15:44:15] <karenreid>  and it still beats carrying around a stack of paper.
 [15:45:17] <andrey__>  haha as a TA I can say that those stacks of paper are a pain
 [15:45:30] <andrey__>  Dalhousie still uses paper .....
 [15:45:42] <antez>  What did the TAs complain about?
 [15:46:13] <karenreid>  I even heard of an instructor who scanned all the midterms and had the TAs markup the pdfs using MarkUS.
 [15:46:24] <karenreid>  The TAs don't like all the clicking.
 [15:46:44] <karenreid>  It would be nice to streamline their workflow a little.
 [15:47:17] <karenreid>  keyboard shortcuts would be a bonus too
 [15:47:35] <andrey__>  well it is all about reducing the amount of clicks to do something
 [15:48:14] <antez>  That will require some UI experts.
 [15:49:11] <karenreid>  Some of the clicks they want to eliminate are ones I think are important - like setting an assignment to complete to indicate marking has finished, but it would be useful to do more of analysis of their workflow again.
 [15:50:27] <antez>  The drop box is abit anoying especially if I have to do it many times.
 [15:51:16] <karenreid>  I should also say, that I'm pleased with the progress we made this term, and I thought that it was a good term. I'm looking forward to using MarkUs with all the fixes and changes in it.
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 [15:51:47] <joeyperry>  I've thought of a few ways to improve the drop box, actually
 [15:52:10] <antez>  Such as?
 [15:52:14] <karenreid>  You are all more than welcome to continue to hang out, contribute, review code, answer mailing list questions, add issues, ...
 [15:52:15] <joeyperry>  at least, give access to more elements of the site through it
 [15:52:19] <karenreid>  I am happy to keep chatting too. :-)
 [15:52:30] <karenreid>  which dropbox?
 [15:53:12] <antez>  I think drop box is better than radio button only if we have a long list of items.
 [15:53:54] <antez>  i am talking about the one to set the marking state of an assignment.
 [15:53:55] <joeyperry>  oh, I'm talking about the navigation item, the dropbox that is present on the assignments page
 [15:54:06] <joeyperry>  sort of a shortcut to other assignments
 [15:54:34] <joeyperry>  ohh, that drop down, to minimize the clicking...
 [15:55:41] <antez>  Yeah, that one is used for every submission.
 [15:56:01] <joeyperry>  well, it could set it to complete once every rubric item has been filled in with a value
 [15:56:10] <joeyperry>  but that feels kind of dangerous
 [15:56:22] <joeyperry>  it really should be an intentional thing, putting it in the "done" pile
 [15:56:29] <karenreid>  joeyperry: exactly
 [15:56:55] <karenreid>  the TAs would also like to be able to flag or categorize assignments which will be an interesting project in the future.
 [15:57:18] <joeyperry>  I'm sure if they took it out, the TA's would want to be able to mark assignments that they aren't done marking yet, and this is exactly that
 [15:57:42] <joeyperry>  hmm, tagging probably wouldn't be too difficult
 [15:57:47] <joeyperry>  kind of like the bug tagging in github
 [15:58:00] <karenreid>  we could give the TAs more bulk actions too such as setting all of their assignments to complete
 [15:58:09] <joeyperry>  [cheated?] [needs clarification] etc.
 [15:58:32] <karenreid>  I'm happy that we can finally get a release out the door so that we have a code base to start working on new ideas again.
 [15:58:39] <e-morency_>  karenreid: I need to leave in 2 minutes, anything I need to know before leaving?
 [15:58:48] <karenreid>  e-morency_: no
 [15:59:16] <karenreid>  e-morency_: Thanks for your work on MarkUs! You will be getting a grade and some feedback from your faculty advisor.
 [15:59:44] <e-morency_>  karenreid: ok, thank you for being our mentor this term, it was nice working with you, have great holidays!
 [16:00:01] <karenreid>  thanks, happy holidays to you too!
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 [16:00:15] <e-morency_>  it was nice working with everybody (and meeting you at the sprint), see you around maybe (if you continue working on Markus!)
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 [16:00:30] <karenreid>  oops
 [16:00:41] <karenreid>  I'm going to have to run too.
 [16:00:49] <karenreid>  Thanks everyone and good luck with your finals!
 [16:01:58] <antez>  Thanks Karen!
 [16:02:02] <mmargel>  Thanks :) Happy holidays Karen
 [16:03:33] <joeyperry>  I should run too, got lots of studying to do!
 [16:03:41] <mmargel>  Same
 [16:03:55] <mmargel>  Good luck with finals everyone
 [16:04:01] <joeyperry>  was great getting to meet and working with everyone!
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