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 [12:54:12] <m_conley>  hey everybody
 [12:54:14] <viv>  hi everyone~
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 [12:55:32] <evanb>  hey!
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 [12:59:25] <m_conley>  karenreid: ready?
 [12:59:29] <karenreid>  Hi! We are looking a little thin on numbers .
 [12:59:38] <m_conley>  indeed.
 [12:59:57] <kschmidt__>  I was having trouble logging in with my usual irc client
 [12:59:58]  victorivri (~chatzilla@208.113.47.52) joined #markus.
 [13:00:02] <victorivri>  hello!
 [13:00:07] <m_conley>  victorivri: hey
 [13:00:22] <karenreid>  Hi, we are almost at quorum
 [13:00:25] <evanb>  Jiahui was quite sick earlier, she might still not be able to make it
 [13:00:26]  kschmidt_ (~KurtisSch@wi-secure-3921.cc.umanitoba.ca) joined #markus.
 [13:01:21] <karenreid>  Let's get started anyway, and Hora, Misa and Jiahui (if she makes it) can catch up.
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 [13:01:45]  *** victorivri afk 2min
 [13:01:54] <Hora>  Hey everyone
 [13:01:57] <m_conley>  Hora: hey
 [13:02:13] <viv>  hello
 [13:02:16] <karenreid>  We had a bit of excitement this week, when I watched an instructor delete an entire assignment worth of grades and marking when he meant to delete a different assignment's groups.
 [13:02:58] <evanb>  Did it end up working out?
 [13:02:59] <kschmidt__>  Ouch
 [13:03:02] <karenreid>  We restored the database from a back up, and I don't think it was MarkUs's fault, but it was scary none-the-less.
 [13:03:15] <karenreid>  We are still waiting to find out, but I' omptimistic.
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 [13:03:25] <m_conley>  karenreid: by "assignment worth of grades" did you mean "assignment worth of groups"?
 [13:03:33] <m_conley>  or was it marking that got wiped out?
 [13:03:35]  #markus: mode change '+o NelleV' by MarkUsBot!~MarkUsBot@li136-145.members.linode.com
 [13:03:37] <m_conley>  or all of the above?
 [13:03:46] <karenreid>  Yes, it was a graded assignment so when the groups were wiped out everything was lost.
 [13:03:54] <m_conley>  holy smokes.
 [13:03:56] <viv>  ooh wow
 [13:03:58] <karenreid>  It might still be in the database, but not visible.
 [13:04:30] <Hora>  wow
 [13:04:43] <karenreid>  Okay, we are at the half-way point in the term, so let's get started.
 [13:05:08] <karenreid>  Hora and kschmidt__ would you like to let us know what you are working on?
 [13:05:18] <Hora>  Ok
 [13:05:31] <kschmidt__>  You or me Hora?
 [13:05:34] <karenreid>  One question I have is which graphics library was Dina using in her code?
 [13:06:01] <Hora>  Hrm, I didn't look that up..
 [13:06:24] <Hora>  Kurtis, can you start about what we did this week? I'll go through Dina's code to find out :P
 [13:06:45] <m_conley>  that sounds good.
 [13:06:46] <kschmidt__>  Alright
 [13:07:00] <kschmidt__>  So this week Hora and I worked through some framworks for graphing
 [13:07:01]  mi_sa (~chatzilla@b2240-07.cdf.utoronto.ca) joined #markus.
 [13:07:22] <kschmidt__>  We just whipped up some quick graphs to see how easy the frameworks were and how nice the graphs they made looked
 [13:07:34] <kschmidt__>  It was pretty easy to eliminate choices
 [13:07:37] <mi_sa>  hi sorry i'm late
 [13:07:49] <kschmidt__>  So then we chose a couple we liked and put up the blog post to get feedback
 [13:07:54] <karenreid>  mi_sa: no worries, we are just getting started.
 [13:07:56] <kschmidt__>  From the looks of the feedback Bluff is the go to choice
 [13:08:09] <kschmidt__>  The other choice (Highrise) was better looking but owned by a company
 [13:08:15] <Hora>  Highcharts*
 [13:08:23] <kschmidt__>  Oh yeah, sorry
 [13:09:14] <Hora>  Dina used jqPlot, btw, which is a plugin for jQuery
 [13:09:21] <kschmidt__>  Ahh
 [13:09:33] <karenreid>  Thanks. Did you look at that one
 [13:09:34] <karenreid>  ?
 [13:09:50] <kschmidt__>  Not one of the ones that we ran into actually
 [13:10:04] <kschmidt__>  However, we did have some trouble attempting to use jQuery with Prototype
 [13:10:15] <Hora>  Right, I was just going to mention that
 [13:10:21] <kschmidt__>  So I'm going to guess that the same issues would pop up with jqPlot
 [13:10:25] <karenreid>  I'd rather avoid mixing JQuery and Prototype if we don't have to.
 [13:10:30] <kschmidt__>  Yes
 [13:10:35] <kschmidt__>  So I think Bluff is the best option
 [13:10:44] <kschmidt__>  MIT License and its completely self contained
 [13:10:55] <karenreid>  It would be worthwhile looking at Dina's code for some ideas though, because you shouldn't have to reinvent everything.
 [13:11:08] <kschmidt__>  Absolutely
 [13:11:22] <karenreid>  Because she didn't get enough feedback on initial chunks, we didn't get to use her code but there still may be something of value.
 [13:11:30] <kschmidt__>  Alright
 [13:11:40] <Hora>  Ok, we'll look through it
 [13:11:46] <kschmidt__>  I'm also curious about the development style for Markus on these joint projects
 [13:11:46] <Hora>  Kurtis, I'll send you the review link
 [13:12:06] <karenreid>  What I would love to see next week is a basic framework up for either a basic dashboard page with just a bit of data,
 [13:12:32] <kschmidt__>  Should Hora and I just work on small chunks and put up reviews from our own forks? Or should I create a graphing branch on my fork and share it with Hora.
 [13:12:35] <karenreid>  or an addition to the student view that includes a histogram of marks or some more statistics for the studnd.
 [13:12:45] <kschmidt__>  We could still do small pushes to upstream Markus
 [13:13:09] <karenreid>  My thinking is that if you can get a small piece up for review that gives you the skeleton, then you can start to add data to it incrementally
 [13:13:23] <karenreid>  and we can argue over how to display it, what to display etc as we go.
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 [13:13:32] <Hora>  Alright
 [13:13:34] <kschmidt__>  That seems good
 [13:13:49] <jiahui>  hi everyone. sorry 'm late
 [13:13:49] <Hora>  So should we work independently, or on the same branch?
 [13:14:00] <karenreid>  I may be a bit off base because I don't have a good sense of how much work it will be to get the basic framework up.
 [13:14:29] <karenreid>  I'll leave the question of branch or not to m_conley, jerboaa and benjamin
 [13:14:39] <kschmidt__>  I don't know exactly either, but I can get the Bluff graphing stuff in before this meeting is over if we really want
 [13:14:39] <m_conley>  kschmidt__ / Hora: might be best to have one of you set up a branch that you can share
 [13:14:58] <kschmidt__>  Ok. Hora I'll set that up
 [13:15:05] <Hora>  Ok cool, thanks Kurtis
 [13:15:41] <karenreid>  The faster you can get small pieces up on review board the more progress overall you will make, and the happier our reviewers will be ;-)
 [13:15:51] <m_conley>  yes, oh yes.
 [13:16:01] <m_conley>  small reviews = fast reviews.
 [13:16:06] <m_conley>  generally speaking, of course.
 [13:16:43] <Hora>  yep, i'm starting to see how great they are
 [13:16:45] <karenreid>  sounds great. Please bug me by email or on irc if you have questions about it.
 [13:16:46] <Hora>  :)
 [13:16:50] <Hora>  ok, will do
 [13:16:54] <m_conley>  Hora: awww yeah. :D
 [13:16:58] <kschmidt__>  can do
 [13:17:24] <karenreid>  Hi Jiahui, I hope you are feeling better!
 [13:17:45] <karenreid>  Let's move to the test framework next. Who would like to start.
 [13:17:46] <karenreid>  ?
 [13:17:56] <evanb>  I can start
 [13:17:58] <victorivri>  not me :-/
 [13:18:08] <jiahui>  karenreid: thanks! i still have to go to the clinic next week, but i'm better, just had a bad week
 [13:18:20] <m_conley>  yikes
 [13:18:20] <evanb>  I got the test framework more or less working on my computer
 [13:18:27] <m_conley>  hey! awesome!
 [13:18:32] <evanb>  in the process I found some issues and fixed some as well
 [13:18:53] <evanb>  and found out that we need a certain add-on to ant to run it properly
 [13:19:15] <karenreid>  hmm. How much of a pain is ant?
 [13:19:59] <evanb>  It's a bit of a pain to interpret the error messages when it goes wrong but I am not familiar with it of course
 [13:20:18] <evanb>  Hopefully we can get MarkUs to recognize these things and display better error messages
 [13:20:43] <jiahui>  evanb: what add-on do we need to run the test?
 [13:21:02] <evanb>  ant-contrib ... it's posted on ReviewBoard
 [13:21:08] <victorivri>  cool
 [13:22:29] <victorivri>  jiahui: we're meeting with evanb tomorrow morning - are you feeling well enough to join in?
 [13:22:54] <jiahui>  i feel ok now. what time
 [13:23:20] <victorivri>  11am, around uoft i guess. let's discuss after the meeting :)
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 [13:23:28] <victorivri>  jiahui: glad to hear it :)
 [13:23:36] <m_conley>  evanb / victorivri / jiahui: besides getting friendlier error messages, what actually needs to be done to the test framework? More or less?
 [13:23:44] <karenreid>  So what are the next steps?
 [13:23:57]  *** karenreid m_conley beat me to it.
 [13:24:10] <m_conley>  :)
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 [13:24:25] <victorivri>  i had several deadlines this week, so i haven't gotten around to it unfortunately
 [13:24:32] <victorivri>  next week will be only markus :)
 [13:24:42] <evanb>  There are various other random things to fix... besides that we want to work on security, and develop some good examples that instructors can use
 [13:25:02] <m_conley>  what can be done, wrt security?
 [13:25:08] <m_conley>  we're not thinking VM at this point, i assume
 [13:25:16] <evanb>  victorivri?
 [13:26:13] <jiahui>  also the test needs files like *.build and *.properties to run, we might create a tool to generate these files automatically
 [13:26:22] <karenreid>  I'm going to have to talk to our admins about what the parameters might be for running VMs, and it would be useful to hear from benjaminv as well on what kind of limitations they might have. Probably from Byron at Waterloo too.
 [13:27:03] <victorivri>  hm, i can't say much more than i have before, but to me a vm seems like an overkill. i know that at york they're pretty good at monitoring what user generated processes are doing, and i'm sure we can do something similar
 [13:27:24] <m_conley>  victorivri: I'd hate to leave a hole open, though
 [13:27:31] <m_conley>  victorivri: even a small one
 [13:27:39] <karenreid>  After your meeting tomorrow, it would be great to see a blog post with some concrete next steps so we can really map out the rest of the term.
 [13:27:51] <m_conley>  victorivri: I'd rather tie up a bull in a pretend house, than tie up a bull in a real house.
 [13:27:53] <victorivri>  m_conley: i understand. i'll do the best i can.
 [13:28:04] <evanb>  karenreid, sounds good
 [13:28:07] <victorivri>  +1
 [13:28:38] <karenreid>  Again, please bug me with questions.
 [13:29:18] <m_conley>  karenreid: next? Remarking?
 [13:29:20] <karenreid>  I really am looking forward to seeing an example or two so that I can start to get a sense of how to put together tests.
 [13:29:31] <karenreid>  Yes, viv and mi_sa you are on
 [13:29:34] <viv>  yes
 [13:30:05] <viv>  we discussed some possible UIs and features we'd like to implement earlier this week
 [13:30:20] <viv>  Misa drafted up a few paper prototypes
 [13:30:35]  *** victorivri i have to go back to work - we have a meeting soon
 [13:30:36] <viv>  we were wondering if we could show them to you today?
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 [13:31:09] <karenreid>  sure. after the meeting?
 [13:31:13] <karenreid>  or later?
 [13:31:14] <mi_sa>  we got diane's feedback yesterday
 [13:31:18] <m_conley>  viv: would it also be possible to scan them in for the blog? Or are there too many little pieces?
 [13:31:21] <mi_sa>  how about 3pm?
 [13:31:26] <viv>  I think Misa's busy until 3pm
 [13:31:29] <karenreid>  3pm sounds good
 [13:31:45] <karenreid>  anything interesting from Diane?
 [13:32:00] <mi_sa>  she had some issues with the layout